V
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Carnivals and BonfiresWhen is a Bonfire Night a Carnival and when is a Carnival a Bonfire Night and what right has a Carnival or Bonfire Society have to call itself a Bonfire Society and what excatly is a Bonfire Society and a proper Bonfire Night. Bearing in mind that some so called Bonfire Nights are put on by Carnival Societies and some Bonfire Societies are calling themselves Carnival Societies and some have Bonfires and Fireworks and some do not. Come out of the closet and decide what you are . . Carnival or Bonfire ? . . Chew on that boyes and belles and I will have a reply for all respondents !
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Ghoti
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As long as there are bonfire boyes and belles and a good laugh (and beer!), who cares?
I prefer fireworks as I like watching them - simple as that.
A bonfire can keep you warm, but I don't always go anywhere near it.
I like the costumes, but stripes dont take away from the fun.
I "play" with bangers and flares, but not at every meeting.
I think personally, even without the history and tradition that lots of people (including me) quote as reasons to bonfire, I'd do it for the same fun if it called bonfire, carnival, parade, festival, pageant, Mardi Gras, whatever.
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The Plotter
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A Bonfire is a traditional celebration to comemorate our historic past, in the form of period costume, historical customs and fire.
A Carnival is an articulated lorry, festooned in flowers and tack with a unhappy looking teenage girl dressed as a fairy looking as if she would rather be anywhere in the world but there and followed down the road by a bunch of clowns!
This does not reflect the opinion of anybody but myself but im sure in correct! 
We love them all really........bring on the Bonfire / Carnival season!
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V
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| Ghoti wrote: | As long as there are bonfire boyes and belles and a good laugh (and beer!), who cares?
I prefer fireworks as I like watching them - simple as that.
A bonfire can keep you warm, but I don't always go anywhere near it.
I like the costumes, but stripes dont take away from the fun.
I "play" with bangers and flares, but not at every meeting.
I think personally, even without the history and tradition that lots of people (including me) quote as reasons to bonfire, I'd do it for the same fun if it called bonfire, carnival, parade, festival, pageant, Mardi Gras, whatever. |
That is your choice which is called feedom of choice or speech which is what bonfire celebrations are all about. Me personaly would like a bit o noise in the ranks, a bonfire and fireworks at the end.
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V
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| The Plotter wrote: | A Bonfire is a traditional celebration to comemorate our historic past, in the form of period costume, historical customs and fire.
A Carnival is an articulated lorry, festooned in flowers and tack with a unhappy looking teenage girl dressed as a fairy looking as if she would rather be anywhere in the world but there and followed down the road by a bunch of clowns!
This does not reflect the opinion of anybody but myself but im sure in correct!
We love them all really........bring on the Bonfire / Carnival season! |
My opinion follows the same lines . . They both can be good in their own way but I`ve marched as a bonfire boye and a bandsman in both and a real bonfire celebration wins hands down for me
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Clunk
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I prefer the "true" bonfires but the early carnivals are cool as well, they're a taster of what is to come later in the season 
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Pyro_Phil
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An old argument that will go on for ever I feel. They both have their own merits which can be good for both> I know some people see the earlier carnival's as not proper bonfire but netherless they can be enjoyable if you're with a like minded bunch of people.
Carnivals= floats, dancing girls, fun fairs, queens, princesses, princes etc. plus maybe a bonfire or freworks.
Bonfire = bonfires, fireworks and lots of noise with none of the above.
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mail man
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carnival or bonfire does it matter, as long as we have fun and enjoy ourselves. we have gone over this tradition bit before.
whether you walk during rain or fine weather I hope you all enjoy yourselves this season.
you need a queen for a carnival
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V
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| mail man wrote: | carnival or bonfire does it matter, as long as we have fun and enjoy ourselves. we have gone over this tradition bit before.
whether you walk during rain or fine weather I hope you all enjoy yourselves this season.
you need a queen for a carnival |
I nominate you to be the queen !
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guyfawkesforpm
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rotherfield | V wrote: | | Its very traditional and villagy |
so v thinks floats are very traditionl 
The Question I am dieing to know has v got an answer to is own question  and if so what is it
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V
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| guyfawkesforpm wrote: | rotherfield | V wrote: | | Its very traditional and villagy |
so v thinks floats are very traditionl
The Question I am dieing to know has v got an answer to is own question and if so what is it |
Floats are very traditional for carnivals
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guyfawkesforpm
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| V wrote: | | Good Luck To Mayfield Whom Are A Good Contender To A Real Bonfire Society Which Had Three Martyrs Burnt At The Stake . . We Be Out Soon x x |
why are they a contender floats included 
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V
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Had Three Martyrs Burnt At The Stake
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lbs.me.uk
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| V wrote: | | Had Three Martyrs Burnt At The Stake |
there are 21 celebrations you have jsut turned around and stated cannot be considered Bonfire thanks to your arguement
well i hope you have fun just going to 2 CELEBRATION NIGHTS (mayfeild and lewes) the rest of us will enjoy the other 21 bonfire carnival hybrids
We are all out to have fun and raise money for charity and if you don't like it take a rookie shine it up nicly, turn it sideways and........
OH and to be honest you are causing more bad blood and bad feelings than the police of the anti bonfire biggots put togeather
--->
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forrest
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oooo Mayfield a toughie to as what you would want to class it as. Afterall they were founded way before the gunpowder plot, as a way of remembering the martyrs and coninue to do so to this day and also aghere to many of the bonfire traditions within Sussex. But then they do have them horrible floats.
I know alot of bonfire people out there class this one as the first real type of bonfire of the season and its the first one of the seson that they go to. Mainly to its setting and the fact it has all the ingredients of a proper bonfire.
So Mayfield i think you're more bonfire than carnival.
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V
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| lbs.me.uk wrote: | | V wrote: | | Had Three Martyrs Burnt At The Stake |
there are 21 celebrations you have jsut turned around and stated cannot be considered Bonfire thanks to your arguement
well i hope you have fun just going to 2 CELEBRATION NIGHTS (mayfeild and lewes) the rest of us will enjoy the other 21 bonfire carnival hybrids
We are all out to have fun and raise money for charity and if you don't like it take a rookie shine it up nicly, turn it sideways and........
OH and to be honest you are causing more bad blood and bad feelings than the police of the anti bonfire biggots put togeather
---> |
Only A JOKE . . I love all of the celebrations and have been to all of them many times over the years and they are all good in their own way . I never said I dislike or like carnivals or bonfires I have entered many fancy dress comps , played in marching bands . I even entered a float at Uckfield one year . By the way I wont be at Mayfield but might start the season at Burgess Hill as usual. Good Luck Tonight
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Gabriel Tomkins
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mayfield's got more martyrs and smugglers history than pretty much any sussex town other than lewes itself - and a few of them as got singed at the stake at "the home of bonfire" were from mayfield, too - so the tradition is as deep seated there as it can be. for good measure, and over a few beers, i'd argue the case that there's more smuggling history in mayfield than any other venue other than hastings (with honorable mentions to eastbourne rye, too, maybe)
unfortunately, the current celebrations with the embarrassing lack of an actual bonfire, and that detestable bloody fair, lump it firmly in the carnival category, but no-one with any genuine understanding of what the whole thing is really about can possibly say that mayfield is not, at heart, a 100% nailed on proper bonfire celebration, and always will be
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Gabriel Tomkins
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| V wrote: | | Had Three Martyrs Burnt At The Stake |
it was acutally four in the village itself (hence the four burning crosses that lead the final part of the procession), plus another two residents of the village who were incinerated along with the other fifteen unfortunates at lewes
as i say, proper bonfire, not carnival 
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V
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Thats interesting . . Always thought it was three martyrs . . You learn summik every day . . Gonna look into that . . Was it a good night guys
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guyfawkesforpm
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A Bonfire Night is a Carnival and Carnival is a Bonfire Night when they remember the act of parliament passed by King James
An Act of Parliament (3 James I, cap 1) was passed to appoint 5 November in each year as a day of thanksgiving for "the joyful day of deliverance"
So that gives them the right to call there self’s a Bonfire Society
And what exactly is a Bonfire Society and a proper Bonfire Night
one that remembers the above act
Is has sod all to do with how many Martyrs where burnt at the steak whether in Lewes, Mayfield or anywhere else
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rockape65
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Good informative post by Gabriel, surely V, "Bonfire" is actually about the gunpowder plot of 1605? and the whole Sussex Bonfire scene is based around the 1606 act of deliverance which is why it's timed around the 5th of November and not the 22nd of July when the first martyrs were burnt at the stake. That's not to say the 17 martyrs (plus, lets not forget the others burnt all over Sussex. i.e. Mayfield, East Grinstead etc) don't have their place in our celebrations, their courage and willingness to stand up for their beliefs against papist oppresion is an example to us all, you only have to read the accounts of their deaths to appreciate that, and how important it is for us to continue to remember them for future generations, because if we don't no-one else will. But ultimately Bonfire is based around the Gunpowder plot of 1605. As lbs points out, your attempt to drive a wedge into the heart of Bonfire by establishing an elitist hierarchy in Lewes with everyone else being non-runners will only further the goal of those who seek to stop us. We at HBS are firmly a Bonfire society, no floats, funfairs, carnival Queens, dance troups here and we do have fireworks in the processions but we will continue to support ALL our fellow Bonfire societies whatever their leaning, snobbery and elitism has no place in Bonfire, and is indeed the very thing we are fighting against!!! Hopefully I haven't offended anyone, I don't profess to be a Bonfire "expert" but I do know why I don my Guernsey every Saturday evening!
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guyfawkesforpm
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well said rockape but
[quote]That's not to say the 17 martyrs (plus, lets not forget the others burnt all over Sussex. i.e. Mayfield, East Grinstead etc) don't have their place in our celebrations
all of us remember the fallen of the war at our celebrations and lewes/mayfield also remember the martyrs as they came from that part of Sussex
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rockape65
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Yep agree totally of course, I think I put in there that they should be remembered. As we all know the vast majority of the martyrs came from the surrounding towns and villages i.e. Mayfield, Brighton, Woodmancote, Ardingly, Warbleton, Heathfield, Rotherfield, Punnets Town etc, so I fail to see why societies from outside Lewes are not considered proper societies? Purely because they are outside Lewes. Surely their loss would have been as greatly felt as the people of our marvelous county town?
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Gabriel Tomkins
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| rockape65 wrote: |
ultimately Bonfire is based around the Gunpowder plot of 1605 |
perhaps not "ultimately", as that would be like saying that the acts of remebrance for the wars were based around armistice day or the german surrender at rheims which might be perceived as defining single moments in a longer campaign simply because they were when it all came to an end
the gunpowder plot and subsequent act setting it's commemoration in stone were the culmination of a fifty year long period of unrest that started with mary's counter-reformation and the burning of the martyrs (wherever they were from, and wherever it took place) - i think the lewes societies, and to a lesser extent mayfield, are justified in making the events that took place at their specific locations more central to their celebrations simply because they may heighten awareness of the historical context of the plot, which is an obvious single point on which to base many celebrations, but which simply would not of happened at all without all the preceding goings on - let's face it, if armistice day was the sole point of reference for remembrance of the great war, you'd only be remembering those who fell on 11/11/18, and none of the millions who fell at cambrai, ypres, passchandael, the somme and so on, which would clearly be daft
i must admit that i've always taken it as read that sussex bonfire was very much based on the broader picture rather than specifically the november 5th goings on which are celebrated all over the country without any of the historical resonance that applies round these parts, hence the clergy getting pelted at newick and so on, or am i wrong ?
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Gabriel Tomkins
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| guyfawkesforpm wrote: |
A Bonfire Night is a Carnival and Carnival is a Bonfire Night when they remember the act of parliament passed by King James
An Act of Parliament (3 James I, cap 1) was passed to appoint 5 November in each year as a day of thanksgiving for "the joyful day of deliverance"
Is has sod all to do with how many Martyrs where burnt at the steak whether in Lewes, Mayfield or anywhere else |
bah - meant to quote the above, too, in my diatribe about "no gunpowder plot or act of parliament without the martyrs, so you can't possibly say that it has "sod all" to do with them".....
anyway, surely "burning at the steak" is more to do with barbecues than bonfire ?
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guyfawkesforpm
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Re: Carnivals and Bonfiresi think this topic is get out of hand and away from the subject
we all have our views but let not forget it is meant to be fun so sod it if you are (Carnival / Bonfire or both ) lets just have fun doing our thing
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mail man
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Re: Carnivals and Bonfires | guyfawkesforpm wrote: | i think this topic is get out of hand and away from the subject
we all have our views but let not forget it is meant to be fun so sod it if you are (Carnival / Bonfire or both ) lets just have fun doing our thing |
Ditto
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Firecracker
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Hurrah some sense at last  lets all just enjoy ourselves, and support each other 
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V
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Thats my whole point . . . . Trying to work out why the Celebrations with all its bonfire/carnival societies only happen in Lewes & Sussex . . One would have thought the celebrations would have centred around westminster in london where the old houses of parliment stood if the celebrations was 100% based on the gunpowder plot. Theres more to it than that . . Mayfield (Formed 1556) proves that. There has been torch lit proccessions of sorts around late October - Mid November since around 500 AD in many parts of east sussex. No one is trying to drive wedges and as I said before all societies are good in there own way. Whether in Lewes or Sussex they all stand for Freedom Of Choice etc.
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admin
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Right you lot, i think enough has been said on this subject, so consider this thread now closedas I think most have had their say.
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